The WHY and WHAT of our DD Catalog System

[RobEzerman]

To get this Forum Topic underway, here is a brief summary of WHY the IKE GROUP is proposing a new Ike DD Catalog System and WHAT it will look like.

WHY? The current Ike hub-doubled catalogs are biased toward recognizing/certifying DD Ikes with only minor differences from previously cataloged DD Ikes. A different Die scratch or different die abrasion lines is enough to create a new listing. Without throwing too many stones, the present system tends to please all players. The certifiers, working largely out of their individual black boxes, get to certify a growing list of DD Ikes and thereby extend their turf. The submittors get their name atached to the coin or "Discovery Coin" attribution.

But there are some very real problems with certifying so many similar Ike DD's as different. You'll have to take my word on this but the IKE GROUP has developed strong evidence that all the Ike proof dies were repeatedly re-treated, each time with new frosting applied to the devices and the fields re-touched. This was carried out at least in part by hands-on operations with opportunity for new scratches to say nothing of new polish lines. It is these repeated proof die re-treatments, by the way, that created the proof's obverse "R's" left leg tendency to fade, dramatically in the 71-S SP SPL but to some extent in every Ike proof.

But it gets better. We are developing strong evidence that the SB Ike dies (Blue-Pack, Specimen Ikes) were also re-treated several times during their life, each time abrading the fields to wipe away fading frost and then re-frosting the surface of the die including the devices. Not only would such field abrading change subtle elements of a DD, there is the probability of removing previous die "markers" and the possibility of adding new ones.

As far as the circulation Ikes are concerned, please get hold of our break-through ErrorScope article, "The 1972 Promoted Compound-Doubled Eisenhower Obverse Master Die", Vol 17 No 3 May'/June 2008 (back issues available via http://www.conecaonline.org). In this article we present the evidence that all the 1972 CB (circulation) Ikes (Denver and all three Philly Ikes) are down-stream products of the same multiple-doubled master die. We present evidence that die state is critically important when identifying "different" DDO's, witness the three different 72 CB DDO's (maybe more by now) certified by Wexler's team and the seven different DDO's certified by Wiles. All from the same doubled master die.

So are they really different DDO's? Not if we can judge from Wile's verbal descriptions which have a persistent monotony.

And why would we not expect minor differences in the appearances of various 72 CB DDO's? The master die hubed at least one working hub, probably several for all of the 72 CB Ikes, and each of those working hubs is used to hub hundreds of working dies. At each down-line hubbing there is the opportunity for new hub-doubling. So we are NOT saying that there are no truly different 72 CB DDO's, and we wait with interest to hear from either Wexler's team or Wiles with examples of 72 CB DDO's that are objectively different from the doubled master die pattern we took such pains to illustrate in our ErrorScope article.

It gets even more complicated with CB Ikes because die state is so critical to the accurate identification of different DD's and the dies used to strike CB Ikes deteriorated rapidly by the first 10 to 15% of their die life. The IKE GROUP feels strongly that one identifies "new" DD's in older than EDS Ikes at one's own risk. Then there is the confounding influence of "MDD" (machine doubling, etc, etc) which is often difficult to tease out from hub-doubling.

WHAT is the IKE GROUP proposing? Two corrective steps. First, thoroughly describe and photograph the known doubled master die patterns and their down-line expression in different dies and dies of different die states. Second, separate minor Ike DD's from the major Ike DD's, initially on the basis of ease of identification. As the "major" Ike DD's are identified, lock them in. Relegate the "minor" Ike DD's to research status and through peer review eventually promote any minor DD that turns out to be important or more readily identifiable by interested non-expert collectors than first thought.

Our approach reverses the current bias toward certifying more and more Ike DD's with minor differences and instead places emphasis on identifying commonalities and then separating the reasonably easy to identify Ike DD's from those that a die expert has to sweat over.

When you think about it, it's no wonder the major TPGs have each taken steps to get away, far, rar away from certifying Ike DD's. NGC pretty much certifies no Ike DD's. PCGS decided to let the CherryPicker's Guide make their decisions for them: if an Ike DD is in the CPG, PCGS will consider it for attribution (no disrespect to Fivaz-Stanton but these good men are not Ike DD experts). ANACS and ICG have played wholesale musical chairs lately but both have in-house DD experts though not necessarily of Ikes. They both use outside experts but ANACS has been irregular lately. ICG has a working relationship with CONECA, right into Wiles Ike DD catalog. Both ICG and ANACS will label DD Ikes accompanied by a certification letter from Wiles or Wexler's team, at times with cumulatively comical results, witness the array of ANACS 71-S SB FPL tags which all seem to differ from one another (that's an exaggeration, but Wiles catalog number for this Ike is DD0-9 whereas Wexler's catalog number is DDO-007, Wiles may add "Fading Peg Leg" and without a certification letter ANACS seems to use just "PEG LEG").

We are proposing a new Ike DD catalog developed via the Internet with transparency and collector participation. If the IKE GROUP is involved there will be no black boxes, and we plan to be involved. Our goal is to arrive at a settled catalog of major Ike DD's that any TPG can use with confidence and that average collectors can understand and thereby get comfortable with and and even get drawn into collecting these interesting Ikes. The heart of this plan is copious clear images on our web site by which any intermediate collector can see the important characteristics of a given Ike DD, debate major or minor, and generally have fun with this new access into a transparent mechanism for cataloging Ike DD's.

Rob

[BillSanders]

We are proposing a new Ike DD catalog developed via the Internet with transparency and collector participation. If the IKE GROUP is involved there will be no black boxes, and we plan to be involved. Our goal is to arrive at a settled catalog of major Ike DD's that any TPG can use with confidence and that average collectors can understand and thereby get comfortable with and and even get drawn into collecting these interesting Ikes. The heart of this plan is copious clear images on our web site by which any intermediate collector can see the important characteristics of a given Ike DD, debate major or minor, and generally have fun with this new access into a transparent mechanism for cataloging Ike DD's.

My interest in collecting was rekindled by my rediscovering the interesting world of error coins, DDs & RPMs. After a very short time frame, I discovered that these areas are defined by a few individuals in each area who do not agree with each other as to specifics. My push in the IKE GROUP is for transparency and to develope a system for the average (or intermediate) collector. I hope you approve of Rob's approach and we would really like to hear any suggestions you may have.
Bill

[RobEzerman]

AMiller, IKE GROUP Member has posted a 1972 DDO on the PCGS Forum that looks to be major and different:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=680097

This is an exciting development and illustrates how a truly different DDO stands out from a co-existing doubled master die pattern. Rob

[foundinrolls]

Hi,

I think that you are right on the money with the concept.

First identify and label the Doubled Dies based on the individual characteristics of the coins.

Then once that is under way, identify die states of the same doubled die variety.

Then from there identify die stages based upon abrasion marks and the like.

You start out with the same labeling for a coin and then add the pertinent information about the coin without having to change its label. (Did that make sense?)

Labeling two coins that are essentially identical doubled dies as two different doubled dies because of abrasion marks would be like calling a group of 1955 DDO cents by five different names depending upon what you can find as die markers on the coins.

Thanks,
Bill O'

[robEzerman]

Bill, hello again -

It has fascinated me that the several Ike DD experts aren't in lock step with one another. There is considerable overlap of what we know of their catalogs but also considerable divergence. If we're correct that the 71-S Silver Proof Ike (and all the other years, both metals) dies were re-frosted and touch-up re-polished multiple times in their life time, and, that all the Silver Business Strike Ikes, especially 72 on, had periodic field polishing and re-frosting, one can see the possibility of some confusion and DD catalog duplication. Brian Allen is well aware that there is dublication and would be working on it had he the time. Die abrasion markers are often the strongest features of any particular Ike DD but if they come and go. . .

Another confounding factor is the difficulty gathering and sequestering specimens, LOL! Darn things aren't cheap. But the main reason there is confusion in Ike DD's is the black boxes from which the major attributors work. James at least publishes a written catalog (Thanks, James!) but without pictures too many of the descriptions sound much the same, LDS, Class II, light spread in LIBERTY and IGWT, that kind of thing. And die state in the low relief Ikes takes a much greater toll of DD patterns than is true of small denominations.

I'm beginning to work with an Ike DD nut who is taking me to task for thinking of Ike DD's in terms of larger and smaller, or "visible and identifiable with a 10X loupe", or "major and minor" and so on. We may be working toward "important" and "of interest" and he is a good influence on me as I do believe we have to identify the Ike DD's that deserve attribution on TPG tags and separate these somehow from the hoard of minor (oops, sorry Tom) Ike DD's without belittling the majority of Ike DDs and their fans. But 60+ Ike 1971 DD's, holy overload Batman, something's got to give! Rob

[robEzerman]

Brian Allen's latest research into Ike Obverse DD's was published recently by John Bordner's NCADD (in their bi-monthly"The HUB", Nov-Dec 2008 edition).

I've asked John if we may publish this 6 page article on our web site (or link to it) as Brian's work is both refreshing and important. If we are allowed to do that I'll post my comments about the specific relevance of Brian's work to ours.

I can leap-frog, however, to a statement that IMHO Brian's work is a boost (indirect and probably unintended) to our decision to move away from the current over-stuffed catalogs and toward a much simplified catalog for Ike collectors and TPG's.

Thus I am more comfortable than ever with our decision to define the "Collectible" Ike DD's and add them to the other "Collectible" Ike Varieties we are defining. As I've suggested earlier, "Collectible Ike DD's" should be a straightforward cherry with a 10X loupe by a non-expert Ike DD enthusiast, have distinct doubled features that are relatively stable in most die states, be neither very rare nor very common, and are not dependent on thin die scratch markers for their identification.

I intend no disrespect to Ike DD collectors who have worked hard to acquire expertise within the current major catalogs (Wiles and Wexler et al). Just as collecting all the RPMs is a compelling hobby to some, collecting all the previously cataloged Ike DD's will continue to be a compelling hobby for some Ike collectors. More power to them!

But The Ike Group will continue to identify the potential "Collectible" Ike Varieties, including the Collectible Ike DD's, and publish their photos and descriptions on our web site for transparent peer review. Rob

[robEzerman]

Just a modest update and a few cool pictures.

Thanks to Brian Allen's excellent work there is more interest in the up-line Ike master die doubling patterns. While Tom and the Ike Group (and others, we hope) work on the 1971-S doubled master dies, the 1973-S Proofs are especially interesting in this regard, showing master die doubling on both sides.

I recently found a 73-S SP with remarkably strong strong master die reverse doubling (actually tripling). In line with our thinking that one must first visualize and describe any up-line master die doubling before one can distinguish differently doubled working hubs and working dies, it gives me a kick and a half to share the following photos that show off the reverse doubling of this proof Ike. You'll see multiple parts of the letters of US of A and DOLLAR and one shot of crater wall doubling, just enough to document that the whole side of Ihis Ike shows strong doubling. Strong, not dramatic, but most of it is visible in my 10X loupe.

I should make clear that I have no primary knowledge about 73-S master die doubling! I'm taking my lead from Wexler and Wiles. But these photos show just how strong master die doubling can be. . .
Rob